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--- site_visit_and_survey_notes [2008-04-01 15:12] – sanjeev
+++ site_visit_and_survey_notes [2008-04-15 12:01] – sanjeev
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-=== Site visits and Surveys ===
+===== Site visits and Surveys =====
 These notes form a part of [[sanjeev shankar]]'s research, which is summarised in his [[research_report_sanjeev-shankar|research report]]
-* **Hortus Botanicus Amsterdam**
+====Hortus Botanicus Amsterdam====
 Established in 1663, the hortus is one of the oldest botanic gardens in the world with more than 6000 plants from all over. What started out as a medicinal herb garden, the hortus grows only pure plant species, as they are found in nature. It is also the first botanic garden in the Netherlands to display the molecular systemics of plants to everyone and continues to organize various cultural, educational and botanical activities through out the year.((http://www.dehortus.nl/index.asp))
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-* **Case Study Delhi**
+====Delhi, India====
 Some pointers related to organic farming in Delhi:
@@ Line 41: / Line 40: @@
   * {{:ciks_workreport_2007.pdf|}}(2006-2007 CIKS:Centre for Indian Knowledge Systems report on organic farming in india)
   * http://www.terradaily.com/reports/Organic_Farms_Provide_A_Clue_For_India_Struggling_Farms_999.html
   * http://www.twocircles.net/2008feb05/back_roots_india_digs_organic_vegetables.html
   * http://manipur.nic.in/rbdc/organicfarming.htm
   * http://www.iccoa.org/
-==Extract from Peri-urban agriculture in India by D S Bhupal, Dr. Fiona Marshall, Dolf te Lintelo==
+====Chandni Chowk, Delhi====
+Also known as the 'moonlight junction', Chandni Chowk is a dense and chaotic urban setting, designed in the 15th century by the mughal emperor Shah Jahan. The place has been a dynamic and thriving epicentre of whole sale trade in north India for 600 years and continues to seamlessly absorb the changes over time. In his search for 'green' spots in this place, the researcher witnessed how religion plays a crucial role in creating a narrative which brings much needed spiritual base for having an inclusive ethical approach in wake of growing pressure from real estate groups. During his visit to a 15th century traditional haveli Sanjeev saw a huge 'peepal' tree. The tree has remained there for over 300 years with changes in built form happening all around it. As the researcher walked through the labyrinthine streets to see more informal courtyards and smaller, personal touches of green: marigold flowers in front of the temple, the small 'jamun' tree in the court yard, 'tulsi', 'kadi patta' and money plants, he sees how even in an extremely dense settlement like this, people find ways to establish their links with nature. A visit to one of the oldest jain temples gives a new insight into how most religions have had a sustainable approach to life. A priest informed the researcher, 'Jain monks are like grazing cattle;they never take too much from one place or person. They take small amounts and then move onto the next spot.'
+{{:perma75.jpg|}}
+{{:perma76.jpg|}}
+===Extract from Peri-urban agriculture in India by D S Bhupal, Dr. Fiona Marshall, Dolf te Lintelo===
   * The rural-peri-urban-urban continuum itself is dynamic in nature and the changes are more marked around cities that are rapidly urbanizing or growing both economically and spatially.
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   * Urbanization and industrialization affect agriculture in the peri-urban areas, as population pressure from the city results in changes in land use , from agricultural to urban land use, be it for housing, commercial, industrial or other purposes. Where the land use remains agricultural, cultivation practices change. Access to urban ready markets for agricultural produce and for seasonal labour open up the possibility of cultivating on a commercial basis high-value, highly perishable crops such as leafy vegetables, replacing storable crops such as cereals and pulses. Industries and their derivative trade and commerce offer new labour opportunities for cultivators and agricultural labourers, resulting in changing occupational structures.
   * The role of agriculture as a livelihood strategy for the poor in peri-urban areas: access to land and water is the prime condition for urban peri agriculture
-  * Wheat, rice and great and spiked millet are cultivated on most of the agricultural land. Vegetable cultivation is also popular.
+  * Wheat, rice and spiked millet are cultivated on most of the agricultural land. Vegetable cultivation is also popular.
   * The number of days of involvement in agriculture as reported by labourers surveyed ranged from 100 to 270 days per year. On average, agricultural labourers were involved for 48 days in zaid/summer (May-June), 55 days in kharif/wet (July-October) and 52 days in rabi/winter season (October-April).
   * Agriculture has an important function in providing employment for poor people in the fringe areas of Delhi. The agricultural activities have a fairly rural character, with dominant roles for cereal (such as wheat, millet and paddy) and fodder crops. Typical cropping systems are millet-wheat; millet-mustard; and paddy-wheat in the kharif and rabi seasons. These cropping systems depend on widely available irrigation facilities - in 1995-96, 89 percent of the land of Delhi NCT was irrigated (Government of NCT of Delhi, 1997). However, farmers opined that frequent interruptions in the electricity supply limited their access to irrigation, particularly for the poorer ones who cannot afford diesel generator sets for pumping.
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 The policy environment in general is marked by a common dichotomy between urban and rural development administration and policies, leaving little scope for acknowledgement of the specific characteristics and needs of agriculture in the urban and peri-urban areas. Agricultural policies are primarily designed for rural areas, and are therefore not always compatible with the needs of UPA farmers. To bridge this gap, opportunities for linking up with activities and programmes need to be identified.
-* **Current Status of Organic farming in India**
+====Organic farming in India====
 Organic farming is gathering momentum all over the globe and is currently practiced in more than 100 countries. Although the term 'organic farming' is
@@ Line 112: / Line 114: @@
 than 61,000. In 2004, India's share was only 0.001 per cent of the global organic market of $31 billion. Certification is the weakest link here. Currently the export of organic products is allowed only if "the produce is packed under a valid organic certification issued by a certifying agency accredited by a designated agency." in October 2003, the Indian Central Government set up a //National Institute of Organic Farming// in Ghaziabad. The purpose of this institute is to formulate rules, regulations and certification of organic farm products in conformity with international standards. The major organic products sold in the global markets include dried fruits and nuts, cocoa, spices, herbs, oil crops, and derived products. Non-food items include cotton, cut flowers, livestock and potted plants.
-The fees for registering a farm as 'organic' and getting international certification is extremely high for small farmers. Further the process is time consuming. Under the government policy in 2005, it took four years for a farm to be certified as organic. The cost of preparing the report was a flat fee of Rs. 5000, and the certificate itself costs another Rs. 5000. While these costs are bearable for the new industrial organic greenhouses, they are equal to or more than an entire year's income for the average small farmer, if the costs of travel and inspection are included. For those farmers who want to make a switch to organic farming, the intermittent 3 year transition period, during which the crops may be less plentiful than with conventional fertilizers and pesticides, and yet the higher price for organic products won't yet be possible because the cetification takes will take time. This is also a deterrent.
+The fees for registering a farm as 'organic' and getting international certification is extremely high for small farmers. Further the process is time consuming. Under the government policy in 2005, it took four years for a farm to be certified as organic. The cost of preparing the report was a flat fee of Rs. 5000, and the certificate itself costs another Rs. 5000. While these costs are bearable for the new industrial organic greenhouses, they are equal to or more than an entire year's income for the average small farmer, if the costs of travel and inspection are included. For those farmers who want to make a switch to organic farming, the intermittent 3 year transition period, during which the crops may be less plentiful than with conventional fertilizers and pesticides, and yet the higher price for organic products won't yet be possible because the certification will take time. This is also a deterrent. Further, almost all bank loans are for pure crop farmers, that is, monoculturalists. While many of these big-business farmers use harmful chemicals and processes, small farmers fertilizing their soil with recycled organic wastes are usually ineligible for insurance, much less state subsidies.
-Further, almost all bank loans are for pure crop farmers, that is, monoculturalists. While many of these big-business farmers use harmful chemicals and processes, small farmers fertilizing their soil with recycled organic wastes are usually ineligible for insurance, much less state subsidies.
 For detailed and comparative analysis please click on the document below:
@@ Line 121: / Line 122: @@
   * {{:letter_from_indian_farmer.pdf|}}
-==Chandni Chowk, Delhi==
+====TERI_Tata Energy Research Institute, Forestry department, New Delhi and FRLHT (Foundation of Revitalisation of local health traditions),Bangalore====
-Also known as the 'moonlight junction', Chandni Chowk is a dense and chaotic urban setting, designed in the 15th century by the mughal emperor Shah Jahan. The place has been a dynamic and thriving epicentre of whole sale trade in north India for 600 years and continues to seamlessly absorb the changes over time. In his search for 'green' spots in this place, the researcher witnessed how religion plays a crucial role in creating a narrative which brings much needed spiritual base for having an inclusive approach in wake of growing pressure from real estate groups. My visit to a 15th century traditional haveli saw a huge 'peepal' tree. The tree has remained in place for over 300 years with changes in built form happening all around it. As Sanjeev walked through the labyrinthine streets to see more informal courtyards and smaller, personal touches of green: marigold flowers in front of the temple, the small 'jamun' tree in the court yard, 'tulsi', 'kadi patta' and money plants, he sees how even in an extremely dense settlement like this, people find ways to establish their links with nature. A visit to one of the oldest jain temples gives a new insight into how most religions have had a sustainable approach to life. A priest informs Sanjeev, 'jain monks are like grazing cattle;they never take too much from one place or person. They take small amounts and then move onto the next spot.'
-{{:perma75.jpg|}}
-{{:perma76.jpg|}}
-==TERI_Tata Energy Research Institute, Forestry department, New Delhi and FRLHT (Foundation of Revitalisation of local health traditions),Bangalore==
 Community outreach program of HHG(home herbal gardens)((http://www.teriin.org)) in Delhi using the following plants:
   * Holy basil (English), Rama tulsi (Hindi). The plant is used in the treatment of cough, cold, bronchitis, diarrhea and dysentery.
-  * Stevia (English). The processed leaves yield a natural sweetener which is a substitute for table sugar, safe for diabetics, as it does not affect
+  * Stevia (English). The processed leaves yield a natural sweetener which is a substitute for table sugar, safe for diabetics, as it does not affect blood sugar levels.
-blood sugar levels.
   * King of biters (English), Kalmegh (Hindi). The plant is used for treating dysentery, cholera, diabetes, influenza, bronchitis, piles, gonorrhoea, and snake venom poisoning.
   * Asparagus (English), Shatavari (Hindi). The plant part is used for treating nervous disorders, tumours, scalding of urine, throat infections, tuberculosis and bronchitis.
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- * **Case Study South India**
+====Gurukula Botanical Sanctuary====
-==Gurukula Botanical Sanctuary==
+Spread over 55 acres, the Gurukula Botanical Sanctuary is a garden of wild plant species grown at the edge of a large rainforest reserve in the Western Ghat Mountains of Kerala, India. It is dedicated to conservation and education. Founded in 1981, the Sanctuary restores endangered species and habitats in a highly fragmented landscape, where only a fraction of original forest remains and much of the native flora has been tragically and sometimes deliberately extracted or “cleaned up” for human use. While witnessing the exuberant growth of anthuriums and begonias around us, we discussed the impact of the growing popularity of ayurveda and organic teas on the forests and how their price does not reflect the real price we all are paying in the long run. The researcher is informed that the amount of bio mass which goes into their production is shockingly high. Of course there are issues of the rise and fall of tea and coffee prices and how economics and ecology have become interlinked. As we move on, we see the epiphytic orchids in the orchidarium conserved in the most impressive manner. Out of 300000 known plants about 30000 are orchids. The sanctuary itself is a repository of over 2000 plant species which is about one-third of the entire regions flora. These have been rescued from degraded and destroyed environments. Conservation in this district of Wayanad, where the original settlers were small migrant farmers with immediate survival needs, is an exceptionally challenging job. Fighting for the last bits of rain forests is not a choice, but a crucial need and responsibility here. The care and patience with which these plants have been brought back to life, convinces the researcher about the need for single minded focus in such a context.
-Spread over 55 acres, the Gurukula Botanical Sanctuary is a garden of wild plant species grown at the edge of a large rainforest reserve in the Western Ghat Mountains of Kerala, India. It is dedicated to conservation and education. Founded in 1981, the Sanctuary restores endangered species and habitats in a highly fragmented landscape, where only a fraction of original forest remains and much of the native flora has been tragically and sometimes deliberately extracted or “cleaned up” for human use. While witnessing the exuberant growth of anthuriums and begonias around us, we discuss the impact of the growing popularity of ayurveda and organic teas on the forests and how their price does not reflect the real price we all are paying in the long run. I am told the amount of bio mass which goes into their production is shockingly high. Of course there are issues of the rise and fall of tea and coffee prices and how economics and ecology have become interlinked. We move on and see the epiphytic orchids in the orchidarium conserved in the most impressive manner. I am told that out of 300000 known plants about 30000 are orchids. The sanctuary itself is a repository of over 2000 plant species which is about one-third of the entire regions flora. These have been rescued from degraded and destroyed environments. While we are told about a pit viper which is often seen coiled up among the plants, another viper quietly waits next to the pond, attracted by the numerous frogs that breed there. Conservation in this district of Wayanad, where the original settlers were small migrant farmers with immediate survival needs, is an exceptionally challenging job. Fighting for the last bits of rain forests is not a choice, but a crucial need and responsibility here. The care and patience with which these plants have been brought back to life, I feel there is no other way to protect them. Such single minded focus is what makes this place special.
+The Sanctuary is run by a small group of resident gardeners, naturalists and educators, and supported by a wide circle of well-wishers. Together it offers an approach that is connected to the climate, landscape, ecosystems, plants, animals and people of the region. In Suprabha’s own words, “The focus here is to find creative, localized and effective ways to restore natural places. Termed as ecosystem gardening, this involves working closely with plants and their environments: tending, cultivating, growing, reseeding, intervening and leaving as much wild space alone. There is clear evidence that the forests will return if we give them a chance.” The researcher notices that a large part of the land area is left alone to harness natural restorative powers. In other parts native species are given quick access by pulling out exotic plants. Then there are very small areas where the intervention happens in great detail, where every plant is known and tended carefully and systematically. I witness this with two resident gardeners who are preparing specific solutions for orchids. I see the soil being heated at one end on a customised wire mesh tray to rid it of fungi and numerous casts being prepared to act as tiles or barks for the stag horn ferns which are quiet striking in their form and survival methods. From using the right type of organic manure, to growing a specific plant in the most appropriate location in the entire site to the use of locally available products, this place has developed answers and solutions over an incredible 25 year period. It has not been easy. During this period, the residents have discovered ways to grow these tender specimens to achieve self-regulation, a time when the plants propagate themselves in complex milieus that resemble their original habitats. It does seem self-sustaining now. Improvisation and recycling has been a crucial key to keep the overheads minimum. It’s heartening to know from Suprabha that, “over time, the distinction between healing areas and the natural forest has diminished. Both, species diversity and forest structure have made a marvellous comeback in areas that had been completely devastated.” This is indeed felt in the surroundings. Over the years as the micro habitats have become more established, everyone has noticed an increase in local fauna_ from butterflies, small mammals and amphibians to birds and snakes. This has been a wonderful bonus for the sanctuary. Apart from conservation and education the work at the sanctuary includes: developing horticultural and conservation skills in local young women; habitat restoration and forest recovery; research in biodiversity, forest ecology, plant taxonomy; and sustainable agriculture and integrated land use to grow the forest farm.
-The Sanctuary is run by a small group of resident gardeners, naturalists and educators, and supported by a wide circle of well-wishers. Together it offers an approach that is connected to the climate, landscape, ecosystems, plants, animals and people of the region. In Suprabha’s own words, “The focus here is to find creative, localized and effective ways to restore natural places. Termed as ecosystem gardening, this involves working closely with plants and their environments: tending, cultivating, growing, reseeding, intervening, as much as leaving wild spaces alone. There is clear evidence that the forests will return if we give them a chance.” I notice that a large part of the land area is left alone to harness natural restorative powers. In other parts native species are given quick access by pulling out exotic plants. Then there are very small areas where the intervention happens in great detail, where every plant is known and tended carefully and systematically. I witness this with two resident gardeners who are preparing specific solutions for orchids. I see the soil being heated at one end on a customised wire mesh tray to rid it of fungi and numerous casts being prepared to act as tiles or barks for the stag horn ferns which are quiet striking in their form and survival methods. From using the right type of organic manure, to growing a specific plant in the most appropriate location in the entire site to the use of locally available products, I realize that this place has developed answers and solutions over an incredible 25 year period. It has not been easy. During this period, the residents have discovered ways to grow these tender specimens to achieve self-regulation, a time when the plants propagate themselves in complex milieus that resemble their original habitats. It does seem self-sustaining now. Improvisation and recycling has been a crucial key to keep the overheads minimum. It’s heartening to know from Suprabha that, “over time, the distinction between healing areas and the natural forest has diminished. Both, species diversity and forest structure have made a marvellous comeback in areas that had been completely devastated.” This is indeed felt in the surroundings. Over the years as the micro habitats have become more established, everyone has noticed an increase in local fauna_ from butterflies, small mammals and amphibians to birds and snakes. This has been a wonderful bonus for the sanctuary. Apart from conservation and education the work at the sanctuary includes: developing horticultural and conservation skills in local young women; habitat restoration and forest recovery; research in biodiversity, forest ecology, plant taxonomy; and sustainable agriculture and integrated land use to grow the forest farm.
+The sanctuary brings back memories of remote tribes in north east India and the way they allow their work and rituals to become a seamless extension of their life. However, here, the difference lies in a strong sense of independence and pride in the work. Everyone can speak in English and that is a great equaliser. There is joy, love, and complete immersion in everyone’s eyes.
-The sanctuary brings back memories of remote tribes in north east India and the way they allow their work and rituals to become a seamless extension of their life. However, here, the difference lies in a strong sense of independence and pride in the work. Everyone can speak in English and that is a great equaliser. I see joy, love, and complete immersion in everyone’s eyes.
+The results in Gurukula are due to a clear understanding and acceptance of the complexity of the problem and of the diversity of techniques required, including detailed long-term observation, scientific knowledge, sound horticultural practice, rigorous experimentation and excellent team work. Over the years a broad knowledge base of 120 plant families covering ecology, biogeography, taxonomy, plant pathology and horticulture has been developed and this has inspired not just the local and national communities but also many international organizations.
-The results in Gurukula are due to a clear understanding and acceptance of the complexity of the problem and of the diversity of techniques required, including detailed long-term observation, scientific knowledge, sound horticultural practice, rigorous experimentation and excellent team work. I am told that over the years a broad knowledge base of 120 plant families covering ecology, biogeography, taxonomy, plant pathology and horticulture has been developed and this has inspired not just the local and national communities but also many international organizations.
 {{:perma77.jpg|}}
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-==Rainforest Retreat==
+====Rainforest Retreat====
 The Rainforest Retreat((http://www.rainforestours.com/)) is an eco-lodge located on an Organic Spice Plantation (MOJO Plantation) nestled in the heart of the Western Ghats (in Kodagu district of southern Karnataka). Founded by Dr. Sujata, a botanist and Anurag Goel, a molecular biologist turned organic farmer, their business model is based on sharing the nuances of organic farming with the visitors apart from selling locally grown cardamom, cinnamon, vanilla, pepper and coffee. Their methods are based on the following prnciples aimed at working toward generating a sustainable agri-ecosystem in the fragile environment:
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-==Beaulah Farm==
+====Beaulah Farm====
 Tucked away in a picturesque pocket of the Nilgiris in South India, Beulah Farm provides the chance visitor a rare personal treat in the state of Tamil Nadu. The place which was founded by Eapen Jacob, does not fall within the usual tourist circuit. One may stumble upon it in the course of meandering walks one usually takes in the hills. Around the cottage, what looks like a wild tangle of a garden, each shrub, plant and bush makes up the herb garden which has been lovingly nurtured and tended to by Eapen, who plays music to his plants every day! From the three different kinds of basil and four different kinds of mint, the rosemary, thyme, sage and parsley. Passion fruits, Malta oranges, lemons make the fruit orchard, along with the strawberry patch. All of these go into making wines, liqueurs, tart marmalades, rhubarb jam and preserves made in a unique way in Sandalwood barrels on the farm. 23 different varieties of Rose wine (including a green and a black rose), guava squash, mint liqueur and a horse radish wine are some of his most popular products, all made in an organic way perfected over the last 25 years. In Jacob's own words, 'Not a grain of yeast or any chemical has gone into the brewing of the wines. We even make our own fertilizers and a gaggle of geese act as his pest control measure.' The liquid organic manure made from sheep and fowl droppings is high in nitrogen and perfect for all the farm produce except for strawberries as it results in extensive leaf growth.
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-==Krac-Á-Dawna Organic Farm==
+====Krac-Á-Dawna Organic Farm====
 Founded by Juli and Vivek Cariappa, KRAC-A-DAWNA is an evolving farm nestled deep within rural Karnataka. It is an important member of the OFAI(Organic Farmers association of India) and has for long searched for practical solutions to daily problems. From home-schooling to manure-teas and bio-gas there are no fixed rules here. Ths is an interesting example in self-learning and re-learning about believing in one's instincts and defying a modern developmental process that relies too heavily on mass production and a rigid definition  of “civilization”. Self-reliance figures prominently in the farms thinking and its founders take a stand on issues ranging from genetically modified seeds to alternative markets, from child education to small- farm organic certification. Nothing leaves the farm in raw form and from natural dyes and cotton to wild honey, cinnamon, pepper and sesame butter, the farm produce has become an important revenue source. Lately, the farm has started developing its expertise in Bio-dynamic farming and trains registered farmers in the same.
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 {{:perma81.jpg|}}
-== Project Deep Fields ==
+====Project Deep Fields====
 An interesting proposal in the 'Green Cities and Open Ideas' category by Krishna Balakrishna from UC Berkeley and Ganesh Mohan, IIT Chennai. The study proposes to create a **Deep Fields Organic Farmers Co-operative** which connects the problem of improper garbage disposal in Indian cities to providing an impetus for organic farming in urban edges. The project stems from a desire to initiate a program that is financially viable, ecologically sustainable, and socially conscious. Further, the ideas proposed are a complete cycle of events rather than discrete units of action.
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-=="RUrbanism": The Goa 2100 Project==
+===="RUrbanism": The Goa 2100 Project====
 "RUrbanism" is the sustainable integration of rural and urban communities. It is a sophisticated new set of design principles and practices governing land use, energy, transportation, governance, and all aspects of economic, ecological, and social development for a major city. The term "RUrbanism" was introduced by the designers of "Goa 2100," a critical breakthrough planning project for the capital city of Panjim, in the Indian state of Goa. Goa 2100 won a Special Jury Prize in the International Sustainable Urban Systems Design competition (Tokyo, 2003). The project is a model of RUrbanism in practice, and it introduces a wide array of new design concepts and analytical tools to support sustainability planning and a transition to sustainability.((http://www.worldchanging.com/archives/002477.html))
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 RUrbanism involves transforming the city into a symbiotic partner with both nature and rural culture  and a net producer of resources and value, rather than a parasitic consumer.((http://www.goa2100.org/))
-==International Plants Expo, Dubai==
+====International Plants Expo, Dubai====
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+====Gilbert's Eco-Garden, Moucron, Belgium====
+This is a local garden club with 100 members who gather on the first Sunday of the month to exchange experiences about their gardens. The gathering attracts gardeners and enthusiasts from neighbouring villages and from nearby cities too. Apart from the discussions and specialised demonstrations which are usually held in gilbert's laboratory and led by Gilbert himself, there is the 30 year old 2000 square metre heterogenous garden to visit and draw inspiration from. The gatherings are enriched by the joy and laughter of sharing seeds, ideas, experiences, recipes and food. The researcher was greatly helped by Gilbert's wife, Kobe Matthys-a regular visitor and Annemie Maes. ((http://thoughtsandtalks.so-on.be/2007/11/04/gilbert-november-2007/))
+((http://thoughtsandtalks.so-on.be/2007/11/04/un-belge-qui-ne-rale-pas-nest-pas-un-belge-cest-bon-pour-la-sante/))
+{{:perma102.jpg|}}
+{{:perma103.jpg|}}
+Some excerpts from a discussion held on 13th April 2008 are given below:
+  * Garlc and onions are protective company for most plants and trees. They also prevent certain mushrooms growing on plants
+  * Many wild plants make 'carpets' in covering soil from january on, but these plants often disappear agan in spring and give place for other plants
+  * Akin to principles of homeopathy, if a plant is sick then we should try plucking the sick leaf and dropping it near the roots and the plant would develop resistance and fight back
+  * Carrots like to grow upon a little hill and they like warm sun
+  * To make the soil fertile, try spreading algae. With algae the worms are drawn up and thus spurns the land
+  * Potatoes should be planted in june/july. This period has less mushroom problems. The potatoes should be planted by sinking them in ground such that it is still visible and then covering them with straw
+  * Grass is one of the best fertilisers. Cut grass around a plant avoids snails coming onto the plants
+  * If you put seeds in refrigerator to -18 degree centigrade for 24 hours and then plant them, they are likely to be more activated